Susanna Pollack on how women are fueling gaming's $200 billion future

How did you find your way into the gaming space? 

I had the first half of my career working in television. I worked for the BBC for nearly 15 years on the television side, helping set up partnerships and co-productions for the amazing content that the BBC creates, like scripted TV and documentaries. 

There was a certain point where I started getting involved in kids' television, and I just loved that space. Not only did I love the creativity, but I also loved that when you are creating kids' content, you can't just think about a TV show. You're thinking about all the different ways children like to experience their stories and their characters. They want their toy, they want to be able to watch clips of them, and they want to play with them. And that really sparked my interest in different ways to tell stories. It doesn't have to be linear.

It was around the same time that my kids were playing video games; my sons were maybe six and 10. And so they just clicked for me. I'm like, "This is a different way of telling stories and experiencing stories." And in many ways, games have become the storytelling platform for a generation. I wanted to get involved in that and help support creators who are making these great stories in a video game format. With an organization like Games for Change, you can leverage storytelling in these digital interactive formats and really apply it to social good. 

You’ve worked at the highest levels of legacy media and now the gaming industry, both historically male-dominated. What has been your most effective strategy for turning dismissiveness or condescension into fuel for innovation?

I have to say, in the first part of my career in television, I didn't feel it. There are so many amazing, strong, talented women who have moved up to leadership positions in that field. 

While I certainly have seen many more male leaders within the gaming industry, I certainly have met and engaged with incredible women. And I think when you find yourself in a space where you are the minority, there's a sense of community and there's a sense of, "we got this." So, there's that extra effort to support other women in an environment like that. I also apply the same principles I always have, right? Go in with confidence, fake it until you make it. I didn't know anyone in the gaming industry. But I came in with confidence like, I can help you. And even if it's in a leadership position, I can help you do your job better. I think with that sensibility where I can help you find funding for something, it's almost like a sense of service to everybody. That seems to translate really well and has allowed me to make some amazing relationships on both sides, private and public. And across the board with everyone.

I love that! What’s happening in the gaming industry right now that really excites you? 

Games as a form of popular culture and as a form of entertainment are really coming into their own. It's a form of media that's been around for 50 years. I grew up playing Atari. It's been around for a long time, but it's been perceived for most of the gaming era as being something for young boys, isolated experiences, keeping them away from society. And it leads to all sorts of problematic behavior, if you will. But as the gaming industry has grown and different means of engaging with games have emerged, it has moved from consoles in the basement or the living room into the hands of anybody with a smartphone. And the introduction of casual gaming, starting with things like ‘Bejeweled’ and now ‘Wordle,’ ‘Words with Friends,’ and so many awesome games that connect with people of all generations.

And I'm not saying it's just those games, but that has really, I think, opened up this idea that everyone's a gamer. You may not self-identify as a gamer, but we all play games. So, what's exciting is that I think it's becoming more acceptable within our culture as a form of entertainment that everyone can enjoy. And the numbers prove it. There are over three and a half billion people who play games on this planet, and nearly 50% of them are women or people who identify as female. And the average age of the gamer is [37].

And from an economic standpoint, the video game industry drives more revenue around the world than film and music combined. So it is a dominant force of our culture and of entertainment. And so where I sit at Games for Change is advocating for the use of this incredible, powerful medium for social good. If we can harness some of that attention from the creator side, from the player side, from the publisher side, to apply that to helping the world be a better place, I feel like there hasn't been a better time to do that than now.

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The Annual Games for Change Festival is referred to as the “Sundance of Video Games.” What makes a game a fit for Games for Change?

The Games for Change Festival is our annual convening in New York, although we also have festivals all over the world, locally in different countries. We really see ourselves as a platform for celebrating the many ways games can make the world better. We really look to the ‘how’ rather than the ‘what.’ How are games contributing to positive good? This can come from a game created specifically for impact. It could be for education, a math game that's used in the classroom. Or incredible games like iCivics, which has a whole portfolio of civic education resources in the US that are designed to teach middle school students how our government works. Right? So those are one type of game. Then there are games from a popular culture setting that are contributing to society, if you will, in a softer way. And we welcome all of that. Are you familiar with the franchise ‘Assassin's Creed’?

Yes!

So, ‘Assassin's Creed’ [is] this amazing … series of games that take place in different parts of history. And you are the assassin. You're given a quest, and you need to right the wrongs or whatever you're being charged to do. But the way Ubisoft makes the game, they bring in a franchise historian to ensure it's factually accurate, whether it's in the French Revolution, Ancient Egypt, or World War I or II. And that game has introduced the love of world history to so many young people who are playing the game. Because it's fun and they're learning something while they're playing. And it got to the point where Ubisoft started hearing about how teachers were modding those games for the classroom because they wanted to find ways to engage their students with world history. And, look, might as well meet them where they are. Right? They love these games. So Ubisoft eventually created a teacher's edition of ‘Assassin's Creed’ so it could be used in the classroom. So there you got one of the most popular games in the world. They're making tons of money and it's made for entertainment; it's done so well, it's so fun, and yet it's also having a positive impact. That, to me, is a great example.

Absolutely. With ‘South of Midnight’s recent win at the Annual Games for Change Festival, we're seeing a major studio celebrate a narrative deeply rooted in Black Southern culture. Games for Change has long advocated for authentic authorship. From your vantage point, does this win signal that the industry is finally trusting diverse creators to lead their own stories, or are we still in a place where these projects get greenlit as “prestige exceptions” while the default remains unchanged?

Oh, that's a good question. I am observing that there is a growing pattern of studios and publishers welcoming these authentic, I'm going to say “creator-driven” or “auteur-driven” stories that address their own reality and their stories to tell. And there's clearly, from a financial point of view, there's a market for that. And I don't think it's necessarily because it's a reflection on Black culture or history. I think, number one, there's talent. They're amazing game makers with a great story, with a great hook, and they can execute. At the end of the day, if it's not a great game, it's not going to work. So, I think it actually reflects more on the investment in the talent, the game designers, the studio. And being more receptive to the fact that a great game can punch through the noise, get the attention, get noticed, and reach the audiences it wants to reach.

‘Grand Theft Auto’ and ‘God of War’ recently announced women protagonists, and a portion of the fanbase lost their minds because those games have always been male-centered. With those games, plus ‘South of Midnight’ and the upcoming ‘Tomb Raider,’ what do you make of the backlash? And how does it fit into the larger conversation about women in gaming?

Well, first of all, there's always going to be haters. I've been reading a lot about Christopher Nolan and the criticism he's having about ‘The Odyssey,’ and how it's not historically accurate, which is the most ridiculous thing in the world. And he was saying, "I'm used to that because I produced Batman." So there's always going to be the haters, which ironically is often such a small segment of people who are playing and are fans. They just have loud voices. 

But that's okay. The tide is turning, and we are seeing it turning. Those choices, the female protagonists — good on them for doing it. It's about time. With titles like ‘Tomb Raider,’ which has always been popular with a female protagonist, that's a franchise that's going to be blowing up significantly in the next year or two with a new animated series, new live-action films and a new live-action series. Like, let's go. So that also shows that it's not completely a new trend, and it can be successful. And lots of different types of people from different walks of life will play it and enjoy it because it's a good game and it's a good story and it's really well executed, and the rest will come along. That's my feeling.

A lot of people say that Generative AI is threatening jobs in both journalism and game art/concept design — fields where women are finally gaining a foothold. Is AI the final frontier of the patriarchy, or a tool for leveling the playing field for solo female devs?

I'm an eternal optimist and I like AI; I use it all the time. I know when to use it when it's good for me, and I know when not to use it. And I know where there are concerns that it will take over jobs, but I also know that there are many, many ways that will make our jobs easier. And as you said, it democratizes access. I've talked a lot about that recently about emerging game studios who are able to make games now... I'm not saying they're making a completely voice-generated AI with prompts, but it provides them resources that otherwise they couldn't afford if those tools weren't there.

And so, if these tools can be leveraged to support human creativity and execution, then let's use them as we use other kinds of technology. In some ways it's similar to what happened with both mobile and also with Steam. When the industry shifted and we could self-publish, you didn't need to have a big publisher pick up your game, as the only channel to get out to the market was through a console.

So now that you can self-publish on iOS or Android, Steam or other browser-based platforms, that was a democratizing moment. You can get your game out there. And I feel like this can have a similar impact to those indie creators who are incredibly talented, but haven't found the path or don't want to explore the path of going up through the traditional system.

And we ask everybody in Maxed Out, what is your daily average phone screen time?

Okay. I looked. All right, so it looks like it's four hours. Is that high or low?

I think that’s low. 

Okay. I think my average time on screen, which to me was a little shocking, was between four and six hours. And then I'm thinking, "Alright, what am I doing?" Because we're only awake for so many hours.

And I realized that, one, I'm listening to a lot of audiobooks and podcasts, and I think it pops up as screen time, even though it's audio, which I find kind of interesting because I'm in the app. I'm in my Audible app.

And I also think because I work from home, I walk around the house and I'm reading emails on my phone. I realize that has become a work tool, as opposed to spending four to six hours playing games and not doing something else, or spending four to six hours watching YouTube. It's just been integrated into my daily life. And so I think a big part of it is, though, the listening, and I do love that. And I do play games throughout the day. I'm playing little short games as breaks throughout the day, two minutes, three minutes, because it definitely helps me reset.

What games are you playing?

I usually start off with New York Times games. I do like ‘Connections’ a lot. It's not ‘Wordle’; it's the other one. LinkedIn has awesome games now. If you haven't found them, they're really good. So I go through those three, and I realize how competitive I am because it's one of the gaming platforms that has a leaderboard. I didn't realize how competitive I am, but clearly I am because I'm like, "What? You got higher!" And the other one that I've been going to for years has been ‘Dots.’ And it's a simple dot-connecting game. It's just very clean, very easy. I'm on level 3,000 or something like that. I've been playing it forever.